The BTC Horse Racing Thread
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@nick-allan said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
Is there anywhere where you can ask direct questions about the software perhaps with Adam directly? I noticed there is nothing on the QandA section. I’ve done a deep dive looking at software results and my results based on the selections that the software provides each morning. Now to be honest some strategies showed completely different results, which I can't understand why? I need to get some advice as i don’t understand if the filters provides selections and they meet the trade criteria at race start why they are not in the software results? does anyone know if you can message Adam directly?
Use Asana on the horse software. It’s the quickest way. Make sure you include which strategy is giving you problems.
I’ll tag @Adam in this as well. Normally I flag stuff in Asana and he tells me what I’ve done or what I’m reading wrong.
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Is there anywhere where you can ask direct questions about the software perhaps with Adam directly? I noticed there is nothing on the QandA section. I’ve done a deep dive looking at software results and my results based on the selections that the software provides each morning. Now to be honest some strategies showed completely different results, which I can't understand why? I need to get some advice as i don’t understand if the filters provides selections and they meet the trade criteria at race start why they are not in the software results? does anyone know if you can message Adam directly?
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@nick-allan said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@john-folan said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@dan-mackinnon said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
Something that I've really enjoyed looking at is the lay strategies on the software. I think it suits my trading style more having lots of small wins and the occasional big loss, but (hopefully) overall heading in the right direction.
I had a mess around with Martin's Beaten Favourite. The filter is here 0_1668523149182_rules_export-laybeatenfav.json
It has a really decent strike rate and when I went through the individual results there were only 251 losing trades from c.2,900
Using £1 flat stakes this is what I got
But after listening to Martin's YouTube Q&A video he mentioned wanting to know your liability. This is something I never really thought about as I see this as a hobby. I then thought what if I changed it to a fixed liability so I went into every trade like it was a placing a bet and I've written off my £14 from a worst-case scenario.
This is using £14 liability from a £100 bank.
The software is really good at running the numbers on a thought experiment like that!
Now stick that liability on a compounding and realise that it’s the way forward
Hey John, can you explain a bit further what you mean about "Stick that liability on a compounding" What i do at the moment in compound at the end of the month. So say for example I have a £100 bank and I risk 1% per trade or £1, now at the end of the month if I've made 10 pounds or ten points I would add that too the bank and I would now have £110 pounds so 1% of that is £1.10 per trade is that what you mean by compounding? because that's how I understand it? It might be different for compounding liability and in which case if you've got any valuable learning resources that you could make me aware of I’d be very grateful.
Pretty much nailed it. If my liability per bet is 1% of a £100 bank. It wins a trade then the next one is 1% of the new bank total.
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@nick-allan it seems like you've been hit by the same Pace Lay losses I've had today. Because one of them was fairly hefty it's crashed my week from being profitable to being at a loss.
I've been comparing my results each day with the software, so far it's the same on both. I'm going to carry on with 1% stake, but from next month I might switch to 3% liability. I think the annoying fact is the software does show losing months but unfortunately we can't tell which ones those will be. We've had 2 losing trades today but the LLR is 3 consecutive trades which could be quite hard to handle. It might be worth having a look at the maximum drawdown as that'll show how much your bank gets reduced. I think the Pace Lays are around 20%, so say you had £500 bank at some point it could get cut down to £400.
If you go into your BF Betting History you can go back 3 months I think. Using that information you could cross-check your results with the software and see where it's not matching up. It could be odds or selections that are causing you trouble which might be a bot issue?
Finally, with compounding you're right. The liability will go up or down in line with your bank. It does mean that some of the more consistent wins on horses with bigger odds get reduced down to allow for the liability. For example, laying a horse at 15 to win £1 means your liability is £14. If your liability was £1 you'll win 7p
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Hi Martin,
I have made a revision to your strategy Martin | LAY | LAST TIME WINNERS
Can you tell me what you think?Many thanks
Philip Brogan
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@greg-mitchell said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@john-folan @Dan-MacKinnon are any of your strategies Lay ones, and if so do you use 1% as Stake or Liability? Just wondering.
I use 1% stake, however I'm looking at switching to liability. Stake will give you better returns but liability is better for the nerves!
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@john-folan said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@dan-mackinnon said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
Something that I've really enjoyed looking at is the lay strategies on the software. I think it suits my trading style more having lots of small wins and the occasional big loss, but (hopefully) overall heading in the right direction.
I had a mess around with Martin's Beaten Favourite. The filter is here 0_1668523149182_rules_export-laybeatenfav.json
It has a really decent strike rate and when I went through the individual results there were only 251 losing trades from c.2,900
Using £1 flat stakes this is what I got
But after listening to Martin's YouTube Q&A video he mentioned wanting to know your liability. This is something I never really thought about as I see this as a hobby. I then thought what if I changed it to a fixed liability so I went into every trade like it was a placing a bet and I've written off my £14 from a worst-case scenario.
This is using £14 liability from a £100 bank.
The software is really good at running the numbers on a thought experiment like that!
Now stick that liability on a compounding and realise that it’s the way forward
Hey John, can you explain a bit further what you mean about "Stick that liability on a compounding" What i do at the moment in compound at the end of the month. So say for example I have a £100 bank and I risk 1% per trade or £1, now at the end of the month if I've made 10 pounds or ten points I would add that too the bank and I would now have £110 pounds so 1% of that is £1.10 per trade is that what you mean by compounding? because that's how I understand it? It might be different for compounding liability and in which case if you've got any valuable learning resources that you could make me aware of I’d be very grateful.
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@greg-mitchell said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@nick-allan Does your bot, pick the favourite or do you nominate the horse picked by the software, which may not be favourite at the off?
it picks the fav in the race not the selection specified as per johns instructions
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@greg-mitchell said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@nick-allan I do have other strategies that I use, so if one of Martins Pace Lays came up on a Back Strategy (for example) I wouldn't do it, that may be the reason for the difference.
Plus there have been two successful Lay Paces today and I didn't do Grace Angel as I know the owner and they said it was gonna win. But guess thats irrelevant.
Out of interest I have just run the Back Fav (Mon, Tue, Sat) on the software and restricted the dates to from the 1st November and it is showing 14pts profit, perhaps you need to check the differences between that and your -24pts.
its not grace angel thats killed it for me today its the 14:38 at southwell fine wine, my bot fired 10 secs before the race start and it was 9.0 -
@nick-allan Does your bot, pick the favourite or do you nominate the horse picked by the software, which may not be favourite at the off?
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@greg-mitchell said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@nick-allan I do have other strategies that I use, so if one of Martins Pace Lays came up on a Back Strategy (for example) I wouldn't do it, that may be the reason for the difference.
Out of interest I have just run the Back Fav (Mon, Tue, Sat) on the software and restricted the dates to from the 1st November and it is showing 14pts profit, perhaps you need to check the differences between that and your -24pts.
then im utterly confused!! i have a bot placing the bets on the fav in the race and ive been checking the logs on BA guardian to see if its right and it appears to be. i just cant get the live environment to replicate the software which is very frustrating
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@nick-allan I do have other strategies that I use, so if one of Martins Pace Lays came up on a Back Strategy (for example) I wouldn't do it, that may be the reason for the difference.
Plus there have been two successful Lay Paces today and I didn't do Grace Angel as I know the owner and they said it was gonna win. But guess thats irrelevant.
Out of interest I have just run the Back Fav (Mon, Tue, Sat) on the software and restricted the dates to from the 1st November and it is showing 14pts profit, perhaps you need to check the differences between that and your -24pts.
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@greg-mitchell said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@nick-allan said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
This is a genuine question for everyone who's got the horse trading software? Is anyone out there making actual money on it? I've been testing for nearly four months now using about four or five strategies and hasn't been any that have been consistently profitable and most would have lost quite a bit of money (don’t worry I’m on low stakes). I see there is a lot of information in the chat about strategies that people have been tweaking and showing the backtesting which is great, but are the actually working in a live testing environment? I understand with any new strategy you need to test it for three to four months I totally get that, but sooner or later the software has to show some form of value would you not disagree? And if none of the strategies are profitable then where is the value? Even the pace lays which had a good month last month are having an absolutely dreadful month this month.
So I'm interested to see if anyone is actually making money and on what strategy they are because maybe I'm just looking at the wrong strategies? Another example will be this recent back the favourite on Saturdays, Mondays and Tuesdays, now granted I've only been testing it for two weeks now but it's on like minus 24 points which is some drawdown.
I hope this isn't perceived as negative because it's not meant to be I'm just genuinely interested if anyone is making money in a live environment and it doesn't matter even if their one pound stakes or 50p stakes have they got any strategies that are making some form of profit?
Of the ones that have been discussed on here, or are being tracked by Martin, I only have data for November, but Back the Fav (+0.5pts), Back Pace Letter (+9pts), and the two Pace Lays (Martins & Lukes) are +6 and +4 by my reckoning.
Any others I am using are still being tweaked and/or forward tested
thats odd as ive been trading martin pace lays this month and by my reckoning they are -10, and as we have 2 losses today one at 10.0 so that could double (hopefully we have a turn around on that)
as for the others thats gtreat but we are only looking at 2 weeks i was interested if people had say like 3 months where over that time they were profitable maybe? I tend to have an ok month followed by 2 disasterous ones.
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@nick-allan said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
This is a genuine question for everyone who's got the horse trading software? Is anyone out there making actual money on it? I've been testing for nearly four months now using about four or five strategies and hasn't been any that have been consistently profitable and most would have lost quite a bit of money (don’t worry I’m on low stakes). I see there is a lot of information in the chat about strategies that people have been tweaking and showing the backtesting which is great, but are the actually working in a live testing environment? I understand with any new strategy you need to test it for three to four months I totally get that, but sooner or later the software has to show some form of value would you not disagree? And if none of the strategies are profitable then where is the value? Even the pace lays which had a good month last month are having an absolutely dreadful month this month.
So I'm interested to see if anyone is actually making money and on what strategy they are because maybe I'm just looking at the wrong strategies? Another example will be this recent back the favourite on Saturdays, Mondays and Tuesdays, now granted I've only been testing it for two weeks now but it's on like minus 24 points which is some drawdown.
I hope this isn't perceived as negative because it's not meant to be I'm just genuinely interested if anyone is making money in a live environment and it doesn't matter even if their one pound stakes or 50p stakes have they got any strategies that are making some form of profit?
Of the ones that have been discussed on here, or are being tracked by Martin, I only have data for November, but Back the Fav (+0.5pts), Back Pace Letter (+9pts), and the two Pace Lays (Martins & Lukes) are +6 and +4 by my reckoning. Excluding today
Any others I am using are still being tweaked and/or forward tested
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@dan-mackinnon said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
Something that I've really enjoyed looking at is the lay strategies on the software. I think it suits my trading style more having lots of small wins and the occasional big loss, but (hopefully) overall heading in the right direction.
I had a mess around with Martin's Beaten Favourite. The filter is here 0_1668523149182_rules_export-laybeatenfav.json
It has a really decent strike rate and when I went through the individual results there were only 251 losing trades from c.2,900
Using £1 flat stakes this is what I got
But after listening to Martin's YouTube Q&A video he mentioned wanting to know your liability. This is something I never really thought about as I see this as a hobby. I then thought what if I changed it to a fixed liability so I went into every trade like it was a placing a bet and I've written off my £14 from a worst-case scenario.
This is using £14 liability from a £100 bank.
The software is really good at running the numbers on a thought experiment like that!
if you had a fixed £14 liability of a £100 bank or 14% per trade, so seven losses and your bank is broken? i mean that could happen we have had 2 pace lays losses today already? so the back testing never showed a break of bank then? am i reading it right?
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This is a genuine question for everyone who's got the horse trading software? Is anyone out there making actual money on it? I've been testing for nearly four months now using about four or five strategies and hasn't been any that have been consistently profitable and most would have lost quite a bit of money (don’t worry I’m on low stakes). I see there is a lot of information in the chat about strategies that people have been tweaking and showing the backtesting which is great, but are the actually working in a live testing environment? I understand with any new strategy you need to test it for three to four months I totally get that, but sooner or later the software has to show some form of value would you not disagree? And if none of the strategies are profitable then where is the value? Even the pace lays which had a good month last month are having an absolutely dreadful month this month.
So I'm interested to see if anyone is actually making money and on what strategy they are because maybe I'm just looking at the wrong strategies? Another example will be this recent back the favourite on Saturdays, Mondays and Tuesdays, now granted I've only been testing it for two weeks now but it's on like minus 24 points which is some drawdown.
I hope this isn't perceived as negative because it's not meant to be I'm just genuinely interested if anyone is making money in a live environment and it doesn't matter even if their one pound stakes or 50p stakes have they got any strategies that are making some form of profit?
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@john-folan @Dan-MacKinnon are any of your strategies Lay ones, and if so do you use 1% as Stake or Liability? Just wondering.
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I had a spare few minutes at lunchtime today so for a laugh did a quick run of a strategy of backing horses priced at 100+ odds. It's good a good ROI but not sure I could handle the 298 losing streak! It could be fine tuned further by looking at distances etc. so feel free to have a play:
0_1668604763950_rules_export (7).json
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Classic Trobs: Trob any between 3.5-9 as close to the off as you can. Avoid Heavy Ground.
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@dan-mackinnon said in The BTC Horse Racing Thread:
@greg-mitchell for me I’m only using 3 strategies and they’re all 1%. That’s based on drawdown, strike rate, etc.
It probably depends on the strategy and what you’re comfortable with. When I was doing the same with football trading I had certain targets and if my bank hit that I would up my stake. That’s another way of compounding. The only trouble doing it manually is you’re less likely to compound down after bad days
Im similar to Dan. The bot does it automatically. I've got a couple at 1%, 1 at 2% and one at 5% all based on the drawdown.
Dan is spot on in his observation about compounding as you go along. The less I have to do with the set and forgets the better. Set them up in the morning and forget about them. That way I am not tempted to fiddle. Concentrate on the afternoons scalping instead.
Read the first post on both threads.
Horse Trading Resources
https://forum.betfairtradingcommunity.com/topic/1111/john-s-horse-trading-resourcesBfBotmanager
https://forum.betfairtradingcommunity.com/topic/2915/bfbotmanager-automation-discussion
