*****New Football Thread*****

Simon Bates

@Martin, on your software the odds section, how often is this updated against Betfair and/or is it just a rough guidance for odds on there, 2 reasons why im asking, firstly I'm going on holiday soon and won't be able to get on Betfair to keep recording odds data for my strategies but I'll be able to come on here to get them, and secondly when I've checked Betfair just now against your software odds they are quite some way out from each other, so just needed to know if I could rely on the odds given in your software.

Richard Latimer

@Fraser-cord I'd argue that technically English players are better now. Yes we had flare players, yes we had midfield destroyers and players who could do everything like Gerrard.

But the majority of our players were not technically great. They played alongside technically great players but they weren't generally the best of the best barring a couple of exceptions.

We have far more of those players now. The main man at Madrid, the best passer of a ball in England and potentially Europe, one of the best right wingers in the world who will only get better.

One of the main men in a midfield/attack that recently bought the Champions League and it's 4th title in 4 years.

Declan Rice who has been described as a unicorn by a football analyst I follow on twitter. Can play 6 and 8 equally well.

John Stones who under Pep will constantly play it out from the back beating the press and then move into midfield as and when.

That's over half a team of players who could probably be in the conversation for World Class.

We just need a manager who is forward thinking, not too afraid to lose that he won't try and win. Values posession and asks us to keep it from keeper to striker. Also one who insists his striker presses from the front as all good teams now do.

One who will favour balance of the team over getting all his favourites in from the start.

Fraser cord

@Craig-vaulks said in *****New Football Thread*****:

@Richard-Latimer agree with this. People also seem to forget how fortunate he has been in each tournament draw. Look at the run in he has had over the years. Playing the likes of ukraine, Colombia and Denmark to get to a semifinals/finals then Slovakia, Switzerland and a average dutch team this year. Making very hard work of most of these matches also. If we were on the other side of the draw we would of done well to get past the quarter finals based on our performances. Always seems to avoid the top teams. After the Italy final I thought that should have been enough with Southgate. He deserves credit for getting England deep in tournaments but against most top teams he has not found a way and get the best out of a very talented squad.

A very good point the media chose to constantly overlook. It's not been England or Southgates fault, but the reason previous England teams have been less successful is exactly that. The teams of the mid 2000's had no less talent, just had to play the better teams. And England have been very fortunate in avoiding them under Southgate. But when they eventually meet, same result.

Credit to him for getting England close, but in reality they were no closer than before, just had a more favourable route.

England need a manager that matches the ability of the players. Southgate has done many things well as England manager but was way short on the most important one. If he takes another managerial job, it will be about his level, Championship or there abouts.

Richard Latimer

@Stephen-Hancox came very close to scoring in the EURO'S didn't he.

The other thing he's amazing at is chasing back, nicking the ball away, reading what players are going to do and intercepting the ball. Mopping up danger before it even starts.

Stephen Hancox

@Richard-Latimer Best things about Rice I like are when he's driving forward and often when the ball is free on the edge of the box I'm hoping it falls to him as he's pretty nifty at long shots.

Craig vaulks

@Richard-Latimer it is worrying even in a free hit against Slovenia Gordon was brought on with 5minutes left. As I've said all along the front 3/4 does not work with his system, Spain had 2 youngsters in yamal and Williams causing all kinds of problems yet Southgate has the likes of palmer, gordon, etc. Who can run at teams but does not use them anywhere near enough in my opinion.

Richard Latimer

@Craig-vaulks He deserves credit for making people interested again, the social messages he sent out when racial abuse reared it's ugly head, the protection he gave his squad and how he made it an attractive proposition to play for England again.

Up to a point.

Now it's clear that some team members won't be enjoying it any more.

Toney, Gordon, Trent, Wharton?

Ben White won't even allow himself to be picked. Who's next if he stays?

Richard Latimer

@Stephen-Hancox in fairness Rice does just fine for Arsenal. Top drawer almost all season.

Half the time the ball bypasses the midfield anyway.

I'm not levelling it at most players individually. It's clear as day the coaching and instructions are woeful. And all the good/World Class players are shoehorned in just so he can get them all on the pitch at the same time. Other than Trent.

A good coach takes the nucleus of that team and makes us tick. Whether we win I don't know but at least we'd play to win.

Craig vaulks

@Richard-Latimer agree with this. People also seem to forget how fortunate he has been in each tournament draw. Look at the run in he has had over the years. Playing the likes of ukraine, Colombia and Denmark to get to a semifinals/finals then Slovakia, Switzerland and a average dutch team this year. Making very hard work of most of these matches also. If we were on the other side of the draw we would of done well to get past the quarter finals based on our performances. Always seems to avoid the top teams. After the Italy final I thought that should have been enough with Southgate. He deserves credit for getting England deep in tournaments but against most top teams he has not found a way and get the best out of a very talented squad.

Stephen Hancox

@Andy-Donnelly Yeah agree with that. In midfield, or anywhere in fact, we need players that we can ping a ball to and they're comfortable receiving it under pressure. Then we can play out from the back and through the lines etc. I think Mainoo is a step in the right direction for that. Rice not so good at that but has other qualities we can't ignore until we find more players like that. I've not seen anything of Wharton, will be watching with interest when the season starts.

Arran Shackell

@Akiva-Anderson

It was you.

Akiva Anderson

@Akiva-Anderson said in *****New Football Thread*****:

I'll be laying England to win the tournament at 4.9

Never in doubt!!

Andy Donnelly

Central midfield was the big problem all tournament and has been for many years! Everyone moans about Kane, foden etc, but for me the consistently most disappointing player in an England shirt is Rice. Just so poor all tournament. It’s not all his own fault, he’s being asked to be more disciplined than he is at club level but until we get someone truly world class that can dictate and control games from that position then England won’t win anything! Here’s to hoping the hype around Wharton is genuine and he kicks on in the next few years!

Stephen Hancox

@Richard-Latimer £5 mill a year, that's crazy isn't it, might soften the blow. The fans have spoken, results aren't the be all and end all, the FA should take note for the next appointment.

Ryan

@Arran-Shackell No idea but fair play to that person!

Ryan

@Alastair-Todd I 100% agree with you!!!

Ryan

@Richard-Latimer I think a few of them will be regretting going.

Pickford pumping it was terrible.

I agree on the talent I think Southgate did what he thought was needed to get to the final but what is telling for me was all the subs he made usually impacted the game somehow. So the initial system was wrong.

I think a manager of Eddie Howe's level probably wins that tournament.

Richard Latimer

@Alastair-Todd Yep, this was the negative and cowardly bit. Kane stunk up the tournament and got picked game after game on reputation.

Alastair Todd

Can I throw something into the mix which I know will be jumped on by all of you who know much more about football than I do. (Hopefully in the spirit of reasoned debate). I think Harry Kane is a bit of a donkey. I know he has been brilliant at BM and has previously been brilliant for 'Engerland' but in both games where he was subbed off, the youngsters came on and the energy immediately changed for the better. Might the problem be that no-one has the guts to drop him from the team?

Richard Latimer

@Stephen-Hancox He gets paid £5m a year. Wish someone would give me a thankless job like that.

Ultimately he's negative and too cowardly to make tough decisions. We sit back, unless we need to score, hoping to hit the opposition on the break.

We shoehorn the best players in regardless of whether they fit and what it does to the balance. Square pegs in round holes.

We get the ball to the GK who hoofs it as long and as hard as he can until it comes right back. It's like the John Smiths advert with Peter Kay.

The top managers now will still try and fashion good strong chances playing out from the back even with 2 minutes to go. Under Southgate we still sling it into the mixer.

Kyle Walker is 34 and his career is winding down. Trent is in his prime and our best passer of a ball with ridiculously good stats for a RB. We tried him in MF then benched him for the rest of the tournament.

Now they're on about giving Southgate a Knightood. That really is a joke. Hope to god he stands down and we get someone who can actually coach the modern game.