Hi all

Is there a way to get the full list of daily quailfiers for a strategy rather than just the ones that fit in at the time of running the software?

I'm finding that I'm missing quite a few and typically they're the ones that are winning!

For instance, yesterday on the Pace Lays I only had one which was a loser for me. Yet on the results this morning there were 4 other selections which were all winning bets.

It's a problem if you want to set up automation in the morning as you're not going to get all the selections.

If I was to run the strategy with no price restrictions, say up to 150.00, would that catch all the qualifiers for the day?

@steven-fletcher all good, yeh i get you. The closer we can get to the exact rules, the more we know we 'should' be making the same returns.

It was suggested to me to run 2 versions of the strategy for lay beaten fav, could be worth the same for C and D? Remove the fav,2nd fav, 3rd fav from the filter to get your daily qualifiers but then have another version with them included to check the results. That way you load the bot the night before with every horse and then allow it to only back if 1st-3rd fav using your bot rules. I appreciate it wont help if horses qualify later in the morning, but should reduce the chances of missing some.

I'm similar to you, need everything sorted before work in the morning as i cant get on after 8am.

@fraser-cord said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@steven-fletcher said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@adam that's brilliant, thanks for the detailed explanation

i think for the time being the limitation is on my style of trading and the bot software

I did think of removing the favourite element and the only one selection from the strategy as this would give me all the course and distance winners. So far with the help of the community ive got a rule which checks the odds range and makes sure a horse is in the top 3 in the betting odds which should get me closer.

Just need to find a way now of creating a rule which doesn't place a bet if more than one horse meets the criteria.......however the easier option could be allowing more than one qualifier per race

I have run the C and D strategy with only 1 qualifier per race and 2 qualifiers through the software last week. According to the software (the big if based on everything you have been saying above @Steven-Fletcher) it says its more profitable long term with 2. Although I don't have any conclusive data to back that up.

I'm also looking at adding a rule to the pace lays to not lay if the horse is the favourite for example. But will look into this further 1st, get the hunch it could be like beaten Fav and want to avoid laying them.

@Fraser-cord I have no doubts at all about the results of the strategy from a backtesting perspective. With the stats software it can easily be seen which horses met the criteria historically. My questions were related to the fact that i tend to take my qualifiers the night before in order to load my bot

C&D is unique in the fact that the strategy relies on the horse who meet the course and distance criteria being in the top three. As the odds can move an awful lot it means that horses can move in and out of qualifying criteria throughout the day as the odds move.

I've had some time today and now think I've sort the bot out to better match the strategy. My aim is to get as close to the rules of the strategy as i can. Ideally id get my qualifiers 10 minutes before each race but even doing this full time this wouldn't be practical

In terms of the 2 qualifiers versus 1 when i looked the profit is higher but its worth noting the draw down is higher, the strike rate is lower and the EV is lower. It also means you will be placing a lot more bets. These are all things that should be considered when deciding which strategy to adopt

@steven-fletcher said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@adam that's brilliant, thanks for the detailed explanation

i think for the time being the limitation is on my style of trading and the bot software

I did think of removing the favourite element and the only one selection from the strategy as this would give me all the course and distance winners. So far with the help of the community ive got a rule which checks the odds range and makes sure a horse is in the top 3 in the betting odds which should get me closer.

Just need to find a way now of creating a rule which doesn't place a bet if more than one horse meets the criteria.......however the easier option could be allowing more than one qualifier per race

I have run the C and D strategy with only 1 qualifier per race and 2 qualifiers through the software last week. According to the software (the big if based on everything you have been saying above @Steven-Fletcher) it says its more profitable long term with 2. Although I don't have any conclusive data to back that up.

I'm also looking at adding a rule to the pace lays to not lay if the horse is the favourite for example. But will look into this further 1st, get the hunch it could be like beaten Fav and want to avoid laying them.

@adam that's brilliant, thanks for the detailed explanation

i think for the time being the limitation is on my style of trading and the bot software

I did think of removing the favourite element and the only one selection from the strategy as this would give me all the course and distance winners. So far with the help of the community ive got a rule which checks the odds range and makes sure a horse is in the top 3 in the betting odds which should get me closer.

Just need to find a way now of creating a rule which doesn't place a bet if more than one horse meets the criteria.......however the easier option could be allowing more than one qualifier per race

@steven-fletcher said in Strategy qualifiers list:

the daily qualifers is run at a fixed point and is essentially stored allowing for a quick download but this means that if the odds move after this point horses may qualify or no longer qualify as the time moves closer to the race

Yes, basically. Qualifiers can change if any transient stats change in that time, by which I mean any info that can change during the lifetime of a market before the race starts. So things like number of runners, traded volumes, favourite prices, going, etc.

This is why for example the daily email showed no qualifiers this morning, when i checked my daily qualifiers showed one match and having just checked the upcoming qualifies show 2 matches

Yes.

When trading other strats this doesnt matter much as we are either backing/laying a named horse or doing something where the actual horses isnt important (back the fav)

Correct. The race type or course are not going to change, for example.

I usually load my bot the night before as with a young family and work im not often able to be near a laptop near race time so as a result im starting to think this may not be a strategy for me as it really doesnt seem to lend itself to being set and forget

This is more an issue of your bot being able to handle changing conditions though. They should all be able to handle "Don't bet if price is not between x and y", but I accept "favourite price between x and y" is slightly different, or even identifying the favourite itself.

Basically you want a bot that can replicate the rules from our software. Obviously we know nothing else out there can quite do this at the moment (shameless self-plug ) so we are exploring a few API partnerships.

Does anyone know at what point the daily qualifiers is run?

They run every 4 hours. The reason it's like this is because we basically have to run every single active strategy to build the qualifiers, which takes a bit of time.

It would probably be a good idea to display the last time they were compiled in the software. We'll add this in.

One alternative could be that we start compiling them in the background when you launch the software, so that you're always seeing the current picture and not that of 3 hours ago, for example. If you have a lot of activated strategies, it would mean you'd have to wait for them all to compile to see all your qualifiers though.

This wouldn't actually solve your issue either, because a lot can change between the night before and the start of the race...

I was just looking to check my understanding is correct on this one

i started paper trading the C&D strategy and was underwhelmed by its start. I use a bot and initially thought this was causing my issue but having checked my results against the strategy i found i was missing races and my daily qualifiers werent matching the results. That in turn lead me to this thread

So from what i have read

the daily qualifers is run at a fixed point and is essentially stored allowing for a quick download but this means that if the odds move after this point horses may qualify or no longer qualify as the time moves closer to the race

This is why for example the daily email showed no qualifiers this morning, when i checked my daily qualifiers showed one match and having just checked the upcoming qualifies show 2 matches

When trading other strats this doesnt matter much as we are either backing/laying a named horse or doing something where the actual horses isnt important (back the fav)

I usually load my bot the night before as with a young family and work im not often able to be near a laptop near race time so as a result im starting to think this may not be a strategy for me as it really doesnt seem to lend itself to being set and forget

Does anyone know at what point the daily qualifiers is run?

Just looked at the two strategies. It's the favourite rule that's doing it. Won't know the favourite order until near the off and even then it can change in the last ten minutes.

@rachel-dawes said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@john-folan

@john-folan said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@rachel-dawes did you have the same problem again? I didn’t think odds were taken into account for the daily qualifiers.

I cannot see why else this one would have this problem. @Adam its basically laying any horse at certain courses pace rated 10. Do the results work on the basis of what the horses rating was before or after the race?

Hi and Happy New year to you all

I've been checking an I think the Pace Lays are OK - the qualifiers all seem to be same if I remove the odds criteria.

I must have just missed the ones the other day.

It's the Back the C and D winner and Lay the Beaten Favourite where the qualifiers are not all shown unless you remove the Favourite criteria.

Admittedly most of the extra ones wouldn't qualify as selections anyway but there are some that change odds during the day and then fit into the criteria.

Try runner numbers. That is normally what screws things up as they change throughout the day. I have separate versions without them in. I get my qualifiers off those and let my bots sort the runner numbers

@john-folan

@john-folan said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@rachel-dawes did you have the same problem again? I didn’t think odds were taken into account for the daily qualifiers.

I cannot see why else this one would have this problem. @Adam its basically laying any horse at certain courses pace rated 10. Do the results work on the basis of what the horses rating was before or after the race?

Hi and Happy New year to you all

I've been checking an I think the Pace Lays are OK - the qualifiers all seem to be same if I remove the odds criteria.

I must have just missed the ones the other day.

It's the Back the C and D winner and Lay the Beaten Favourite where the qualifiers are not all shown unless you remove the Favourite criteria.

Admittedly most of the extra ones wouldn't qualify as selections anyway but there are some that change odds during the day and then fit into the criteria.

@adam said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@john-folan said in Strategy qualifiers list:

What about the following day when the race has been run? Is it then calculating the results including that last result when it couldn't the day before when the qualifiers were created because the race hadn't been run yet?

No, it's always the previous 3 races before the one you're looking at. So if a race happened on Monday then it's always the previous 3 before that race, even if the result for that race is known.

So much for me trying to be clever then. I’ve done two days worth so far and not got any extra trades yet

@john-folan said in Strategy qualifiers list:

What about the following day when the race has been run? Is it then calculating the results including that last result when it couldn't the day before when the qualifiers were created because the race hadn't been run yet?

No, it's always the previous 3 races before the one you're looking at. So if a race happened on Monday then it's always the previous 3 before that race, even if the result for that race is known.

Inconclusive yesterday. Out of the qualifiers four traded and there were no extras in the results that weren't on the qualifiers. Will do the same for todays

@adam said in Strategy qualifiers list:

The pace rating is based on the horse's last 3 races, it's not going to use the current race in the strategy results as that wouldn't be known before the race.

The upcoming qualifiers ignores any price restrictions in the betting rules section because the full price history for the horse isn't known yet and those settings are just used to calculate historical profit.

However, if you're adding the "Favourite" rule into a strategy, that could be affected by the prices in the upcoming race because it uses the last traded price. Obviously the favourite in a race could change regularly as prices move.

That's irrelevant for the "official" pace lays strategy in the presets, just depends what other rules people may be adding in.

What about the following day when the race has been run? Is it then calculating the results including that last result when it couldn't the day before when the qualifiers were created because the race hadn't been run yet?

The pace rating is based on the horse's last 3 races, it's not going to use the current race in the strategy results as that wouldn't be known before the race.

The upcoming qualifiers ignores any price restrictions in the betting rules section because the full price history for the horse isn't known yet and those settings are just used to calculate historical profit.

However, if you're adding the "Favourite" rule into a strategy, that could be affected by the prices in the upcoming race because it uses the last traded price. Obviously the favourite in a race could change regularly as prices move.

That's irrelevant for the "official" pace lays strategy in the presets, just depends what other rules people may be adding in.

I've downloaded today's qualifiers. It's exactly the same with odds in the range or 1.01-1000. I'll check them tomorrow and see if we can get to the bottom of it

@rachel-dawes did you have the same problem again? I didn’t think odds were taken into account for the daily qualifiers.

I cannot see why else this one would have this problem. @Adam its basically laying any horse at certain courses pace rated 10. Do the results work on the basis of what the horses rating was before or after the race?

@keith-driscoll pretty sure I can do that on Bfbot as well

@rachel-dawes said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@john-folan said in Strategy qualifiers list:

ndle those. I’m usually

The Lay the beaten fav strat is also a problem with the favourite/2nd/3rd @ BSP as you obviously don't know for sure when entering at 10 mins. I've been waiting until near the off but it skews the results/profits somewhat.

What bot software would you recommend? I'm using Betangel atm - very new to automation but I managed to get the Back the Fav strategy working.

I want to add the Pace Lays and Lay the BF in - would you know if you can have multiple strategies on one race using Betangel?

I use BA. You can change that bot to trigger 1-2 seconds after the off, and place the bet on the BSP fav. This sees a small drop in profit, but it does mean you are hitting the correct qualifier 99.99% of the time.

@rachel-dawes said in Strategy qualifiers list:

@john-folan said in Strategy qualifiers list:

ndle those. I’m usually

The Lay the beaten fav strat is also a problem with the favourite/2nd/3rd @ BSP as you obviously don't know for sure when entering at 10 mins. I've been waiting until near the off but it skews the results/profits somewhat.

What bot software would you recommend? I'm using Betangel atm - very new to automation but I managed to get the Back the Fav strategy working.

I want to add the Pace Lays and Lay the BF in - would you know if you can have multiple strategies on one race using Betangel?

I use Bfbotmanager. I find it better but that’s just me. You can do more with it and have multiple strategies on the same race easily. Bet Angel is much faster but you have to open more instances to have more than one strategy a race and I think the lack of conditions you can pick from is crap.